Uh yeah, so w it was uh during COVID I think it was, yeah. When uh I came back from Barbados and I just been to I've been to one of the Palestine releases. And were you sitting downstairs, you've been actually exiled from your own apartment with the cleaners and I thought it was like well I thought he was a Palestinian and there was an exile and he's been exiled for his own parent and be saying to me, You look in the buy a kafia Right Kafia and you're all bushes from COVID. I h happened to have a a male Palestinian flag. I give it to you. I took a photograph and the photograph read uh When Ireland and Palestine wait, there's always Bon Home Solidarity. Oh must have been ten or fifteen of you born earlier. We became good friends when we have it was uh Tony. Tony Parrison. I remember we first met, uh I think I was trying to say cast or something like that. I'm trying to say you should fight out. But um and I didn't know who you were, but Philip had told me. He says, yeah, I mean this this famous this Palestinian guy and I Yeah, I mean I've never heard of that with scenes. And then when I uh met you and we was put to cut off. Then funny we were and uh his family was our sound shit. Uh you how but you have keeping living in London all your life and s educated here in the West and being in other same, I mean what does it what does that mean? I mean does it does the name stuff the name carries all the weight in the in the in the airport Well we have a historical legacy, of course. My um my grandfather, my maternal grandfather was um a member of the Arab Higher Committee. Um he was a member of the uh Supreme Muslim Council and he was exiled by the British to the Seychelles after the Arab Revolt uh where the British were basically trying to decapitate any Palestinian leadership. Um uh my father uh was a member of the PLO Executive Committee and he was chairman of the Palestine National Fund from nineteen eighty four from nineteen eighty four to nineteen ninety-six. And um as you know I I have just um written a book which will be published very shortly. called the administration of Palestine Authority Unresolved. It's free will of it. That's free uh it's free authoritative That's very kind of you. And uh and you've been quite prolific of regularly since you learned to see it, but you work in at Substack you. You're pushing Well I think one has to get the message out and uh you know some some of my articles are scholarly Some of them are observations when watching the news. You get anxiety, you get disappointed, you see what's happening in the region And I think it affects all people who genuinely want to to live in security and peace. Whether Palestinians, Israelis, Saudis, uh Iranians uh Gulf Arabs that everybody really needs stability in the region. Um You know, this was an unprovoked war with Iran, and it has backfired on Trump Netanyahu unfortunately needs constant enemies to keep himself out of prison Um after the genocide in Gaza, now he's in Lebanon, he's bombed Syria, he's bombed Iran, Yemen. Where's the rest? But do you think that uh looking at these things from an Irish perspective 'cause I grew up in the occupations perspective I was a long long trouble history. I do think being Palestinian is giving you like a a weird And what I'm saying of a queer insight towards m towards the oppressed and towards top. Well, I mean you as an Ashman should know. I mean, you know there are similarities that the empire that the Empire Used to transfer its colonial policies to all over the world. We take uh Charles William Tegart, right? He was an Irishman He was uh he went to India, he suppressed the uh the uprisings in India, and then he was brought in to suppress the uprising in Palestine. So even though there are you know, sort of directly comparable, but there is an understanding there that colonial occupation um holds up being an administrative situation. And and this and this is why I started my book, Everybody Thinks that The history of of Britain in Palestine starts from uh the Balfour Declaration, where those 67 words Here wasn't it? Uh he wrote promised uh a homeland for Jews in Palestine but I think that we should go one step further back and go back to January nineteen fifteen where there was a memorandum written by Herbert Louis Samuel who was the first Jewish cabinet minister. He was very British. He was a very decent man. But he was brought up with a Victorian Understanding of Empire. Yes. And he was a brilliant administrator. He wrote a memorandum called the The Future of Palestine. uh which was discussed in in cabinet. At the time Masquith was a Prime Minister didn't really take it seriously. You must remember that Palestine was still an Ottoman province that They had just joined Austria-Hungary uh in the war, but Britain knew that the Ottoman Empire couldn't survive the days of wars of Arabia. Um the Ottoman Empire actually yeah I mean it fish uh ninety following the search of sex pico yeah and all that. Now where the change happened was that while Asquith sort of didn't you know, didn't really um take the memorandum, the future of Palestine particularly seriously. It wasn't very high up on his agenda By nineteen seventeen, uh David Lloyd George became Prime Minister. Uh facts on the ground changed very rapidly. Uh But the Russians, you know the raising in islands when they could they have various fracturing, yeah. The Empire's fracturing, the French had a lot of interests in you know, so Sajpiko decided to carve up who gets Syria, who gets Mesopotamia, uh, who gets Palestine. Now Palestine was very important for the British because it gave them access to the eastern Mediterranean and it secured the Suez Canal, which was vital for them because the jewel in their crown was India. India of course. And they wanted to secure away to the basically wanted to secure the Suez Canal. And at that time they had not known that there was oil offshore. In economic terms There wasn't much going on in Palestine of of value. Um but it had a geographic value to them. And that's where that's where uh secure term in independent I mean the cities there were Bostling cities because there were there were always Muslim cities. You know, it was never Nantilan. But Lloyd George was a religious man and he had also kind of uh crusader type mentality or w doing that and what Asquith disregarded from Herbert Samuel's paper was Herbert Samuel was an administrator. So he had his paper had developed this concept that it is important for Britain and future. He said he could see that supporting a Jewish homeland in Palestine would of alliances to the Jews in America plus the Jews the Jew plus in Russia. There was a phrase wasn't it? I mean if we're going to create a little loyalster in the sea of military I mean I know who said that's when that was when they left when they were talking about creating creating it with the choice. You know, y must remember this was the time of empire and and an empire have To be able to control empire you need to be able to administer everything. So basically they were a bunch of bureaucrats who provided manuals on policing, manuals on law. So everything became basically an administrative problem. Yes. I mean So and uh what was it what would you recruit our citizen Indian? And they recruited who they could recruit. Uh they tried to recruit notables Uh they tried to recruit the local The Arrow Bureau at the time was a very unique set up because it was the first time really radio was coming in into force. They they were publishing in Arabic and the bureau was made up of interesting people. I mean everybody remembers Lawrence of Arabia. But you have to remember that there were archaeologists, they were writers, they were they were not your traditional spies. And they were able to map out really where the tribes were, where the loyalties were uh were. Um they could see the fractures within the various divisions, they could s map out where the railways were, they could map out where the ports were, uh they could speak the language. I mean they were based out of they were based out of Cairo, but they were basically the first sort of data gathering, modern data gathering Where it went beyond any old days so that the spies were recording military tough little they went they went further as Saraz and they uh They went into the society angle, they collected. book on this by Aben Geron called the Arburo. I recommend anybody to read it. It's a big call Christmas, I didn't really study myself. But there are views on the campaign's always seen as that. I think in nineteen twenty or nineteen twenty. It didn't last it didn't last too long. But it supplied the information that Sitz Picot used to carve up That part of the middle is farming the two two bureaucrats with different princes. I mean all these lines are maps. We see straight lines, I mean they never um But but they had enough information to see, you know, the British always liked to divide and rule. Really? And so it was in their interests to create certain tensions everywhere. At the time Woodrow Wilson was talking about self-determination. Uh the British were were not, you know, kind of they got a mandate from the League of Nations on Palestine. Uh Herbert Samuel became the first governor of Palestine it was the first time a Jew had been in charge of Palestine for two thousand years Um since since Roman times. So you know, just very interesting. Now you can't draw a straight line between Herbert Samuel to the present day. Herbert Samuel was a decent man. He was an administrator and he tried to be fair So he did he didn't have his religion come in there or his personal beliefs, it was strictly a job? It was a job. I mean he became a Zionist, but he became a Zionist Over time. He wasn't initially a Zionist, but he he saw Zionism in terms of British interests. Supporting British interest Especially when you saw the the the Russian Revolution, uh the breakup of the the Austro Hungarian Empire, uh the French being there, the British interest. So This is where it comes from Americans. It's all about empire preservation. And what happened is that the empire always leaves remnants. Whether it whether it is the laws uh that are either carried forward or the emergency regulations that are used There's always remnant of of the colonial reformation. Really like this. I mean it's still not I don't know Israel they still use these old terms, the old element terms. One letter. Yes. So there's always so you And the West Bankman is still the other ones think the other one is these that still stand. I mean what sort of uh Jews we your family to be stand on on on chat. I mean I was I was just is this vocabulary was it I had to go but was it vocal or was it for petitioning was it was it uh the political activity Well, one th it was my great grandfather was governor of seven several provinces. His name was like my name, Taofik Al Bushay, uh Taufik Bay, and he was a governor of uh certain parts, I think Tripoli under the Ottoman Empire. My grandfather Ya Kudbe became a member of the Arab Higher Committee uh which was trying to organize Palestinian institutions. Right And that was decapitated when the Arab Revolt happened and he was exiled to the Seychelles. And then Funnily enough, they needed somebody to negotiate with, so they brought them back, and they were at the St. James Conference, I think in 1939 or 40, discussing You know, you have to discuss something. So the text gave the voice. Gave them a voice and they took the voice away. That is the problem. The Jews that had emigrated to Palestine were being armed, they were being trained by the British um yeah, I mean The thing that forks from the Irish, you know, they were all they were all these couldn't make it in at the cons and you say techniques. By 1945-46, we've just now seen the 80th anniversary of the of the bombing of the King David Hotel. uh the Israelis celebrate this first terrorist terrorist action at least uh not the first terrorist action on the Middle East, but It was a major terrorist. I mean, they kill they killed the soldiers, they killed waiters, they killed Palestinians, they just you know, the the Haganah were behind it and you know you you see that Even today this is celebrating this is celebrating this act of terrorism is celebrating by Israel. It's ironic that Megan who was involved with that, you know, who became Prime Minister of Israel, uh was being greeted by world leaders all around, you know, and uh he was of course uh ca at Camp David with uh Sadat. But the funny thing is the the Queen refused to meet any of the Israeli Prime Ministers because she has a historical memory of empire. And uh even though British Prime Ministers used to meet regularly with Israeli officials. The the Queen Never met them officially in Buckingham Palace. And uh I I'm trying to remember um I think it was uh Barack who who said that you know, who wrote an article about this discussing um the Queen had historical memory of the terrorism that was caused against the British and therefore had refused to have an official meeting with any of their uh Prime Ministers or Presidents in Buckingham Palace. She took she took a principal stand then? Um she took a historical stand, a principal stand, but it's funny because she she mentioned she didn't get murdered McGill, she was I suppose it for like for the death death of her um what was your uncle? I mean um Well he was killed of course by the I already she she actually took her own myth Might be one we'll use, which was a big step mean for for both. I mean this this was with uh this was peace, I mean this this was the biggest step mean for Tweet. The Irish commander to meet the pr member that pr a certain member of the British Royal Family. I mean that was a big step and then the started off visit to Ireland. I mean these these huge in the certain and well the streets were empty. Security was um Well that that that took a long time for uh that those categories to come abush. But um that's a taunt. But I mean we'll say rather we'll say suppose I take that mean seas for for a piece to have I mean i there has to be you have to move above these things. I mean you have to make peace with your enemies so you need dialogue. We thought You know, kind of the problem the problem that I see is and the fault we say something like Oslo's remote is that the Palestinians continually had to prove their trustworthiness for it. And the Israelis kept on moving the goalposts. They kept on building settlements. I think that They the the Lebanese are making the same problem uh now because Israel has occupied the south again. And And now again this peace treaty that is being signed between Israel and Lebanon requires the Lebanese to constantly prove this That they are worthy who is the arbiter? Why why Christian pressure and who decides whether you have met your obligation? Is it a good idea? And once you get different Israeli governments, you get the right wing governments, you've got people like Ben Gavir, you've got Swotrich. These are extreme they are extremists I mean within within within Israel there are some you know very decent decent people who are humanitarian, who are concerned about the injustice that they see. But the problem is that they are not allowed access to the Well Net Night surround himself with this way, we'd keep himself a poor and this is cabal. Yeah. I mean, even in Israel they are not allowed to see the devastation that's happened in Gaza. Everything is censored by by the military and sanitized you thank God for sort of the citizen journalists that have been able to on their telephones sell and keep an archival record. And it's on it's on the Fear of Prosecution team. Uh I mean the funny thing is that in the Netherlands Uh now the Hind Rajab Foundation is prosecuting a Dutch Israeli because he himself provided the evidence of war crime, satellite imagery provided, you know, location wise and everything. And they used to post to themselves the barbarism that occurred in Gaza. Gaza is like a manager important for a long time. But Gaza I that was that was that for me that was I think I was saying like I mean feet those it was the years and this it's one of the worst prices I've seen. I'm nice first off from it because it was just so disturbing. I it was just mean I've never saying like this. I mean this is because I've been that was this previous campaigns before you know the thirty years and uh have a good policy of friends and what watching watching the reaction and the community. But Gaza, I mean this I says that. War crimes, genocide, barbers. The world just sat by unwatched. And then you can't criticize Palestine and this country, you're not taking with Well this is the problem. I mean what we're asking European and American politicians Please apply the law. I mean the Row statute was signed, right? And after World War Two and the barbarity that happened, you know, the terrible holocaust we had the UN you you you have the Holocaust Strife where six million Jews were brought to death. I mean they were to when they were trying clinically exterminated. Yeah, exterminated. And and that you know, industrialized mankind. It it wa it was it was horrific. You don't shame you don't we put seat in. But and therefore, you know, when these new rules came into into place so that Never again. Never again. Never again. We shouldn't say never again applies across the board. You can't be protecting your allies. I mean you've got President Trump Saying Netanyahu will never be arrested. They're trying to destroy the International Court of Justice and the and and the ICC. uh international law. But if you're going to apply if you're going to uphold international law, it should be applied across the board whoever commits crimes against humanity, war crimes. Whether they're Palestinians, whether they're Israelis, you got you can't you can't Safe we're now so they they've applied things to Russia against Ukraine and yet and yet here there's they are supplying drones that are built in the UK by Elbit Systems, which is an Israeli company and Palestine has become a laboratory with a testing ground, you know with Wormshit Um for the arms trade. Yeah. This is on different level. Ca I know that the official figures say eighty thousand civilians have been killed, but I think the figure is closer to half a million by the time you take in the starvation, the sickness those that were under the rubble that still haven't been taken because there are there are at least five hundred thousand people that still are unaccounted for. They're now denying you know that they're now denying full aid against what the the ceasefire treaty They're only getting in this systematicism. There's no this is like I mean I mean they won't have to be a West the West of S the West of Salt was uh I mean And you have to remember that Gaza Gaza also has very valuable oil and gas fields offshore. The Israelis have the Leviathan field. You know, so Turkey is looking at this a very happy Egyptians have built a LNG plant that they've already signed deals with Israel to supply the gas for the LNG and then that's going to go to Europe via Cyprus in order to to find an alternative to Russian gas. But so the Eastern Mediterranean is going to be are they going also on another canal really? Yes, they're talking about you know the Ben Gurian Canal. Uh I don't know how realistic that's going to be. You know, uh Egypt gets at least six million a year out of the uh Suez Canal, which is for Egypt a lot of money. Yeah, live there. Um but again you go the the Babel Mandan, the Houthis have been able to disrupt the strength the streets of uh Hormuz, the Yemenis have been able to stop the uh uh the Red Sea shipping, yeah. To switch shipping. Yeah, the this is a um Yeah this is why Israel sort of recognized Somaliland um the UAE are in bed with the Israelis, uh they rely on Israeli technology, they have brought in Israeli iron guns dome systems and Israeli troops are regularly given R and R on the house. in Dubai about to rest and relax between their between their stints. So so early so they're thinking that Somaliland will sort of try to neutralize the the Outheast and the Red City. You are talking about thirty odd kilometers, which in real terms, you know, it's very small for these big tankers. Very easy to disrupt. Very easy to disrupt the ears, huh? Everybody in the region wants peace and stability. Everybody in the region knows that Israel is there to stay there. They're not going to they're not going to the people going to stay. We're all living side by side, we respect everybody's religion. We expect uh we respect what what we what we don't like is the way that Zionism has transferred a noble religion and conflated it with a colonial concept and project. And and what is it we see in Palestine is apartheid, we see a dual system of justice, uh we see continual torture, you know Yeah. This this was I mean that we have No, then same like we have a so uh to give segregation and so on so forth, second work we were second class to this, but uh they they've taken to a little different level level. I mean this is um It's barbaric. Barbarically. It is barbaric and the Palestinians are slowly. And you know, you find even Israeli genocide scholars have finally admitted genocide has been committed. Um still find it difficult. I mean Andy Burnham now who's the new Prime Minister He's apologized, but he still hasn't used the G word. Right. Um see him as Fritz a little anti-Semitism. That's that's the old um If you say something against the rule, you know it's a good idea. Well this is why I I you know kind of I found it sort of objectionable that the chief rabbi is teth was telling the Anglican church, don't Uh don't allow the Palestinian document known as Kirostu to be you know, which are Christian Palestinians wanting to tell their experiences of what's happening with Ah and they were the chief rabbi is trying to stop the Anglican church But thank God the Angliff and churches know. I mean, you know Yes, we mean this this is this controlling narrative. They are trying trying to control the narrative. They they they know Now APAC even in America knows it knows it's toxic and it's now changing. So it's still funding, but they're funding through different organizations because they know that I mean that APAC has become toxic within America. Oh definitely. And and it's and it is and that change has come from young Jewish Americans who have sort of broken from the past sort of Gen Z You know, the old the old generation always memory they could detail and the new people are seeing within their own eyes both the things are Holocaust of areas and the families and so on so forth, yeah. With their own eyes the the genocide, the horrors so they're no longer you know, they're seeing the horrors of the right wing government, you know, b because Between Trump who's exposed basically the corruption of power and put everything out of the Yeah, Steen Krass and Ben Gavier and Sportrich have also exposed the worst side of Zionism. I mean this I mean this is when this when Gaza has done this. I mean the the workers of K Derman and the Tim I mean it's very very sad. What do you think Topic I mean well where were we saying I mean hopefully we will be at peace at some stage. This is what we wish for. This is what I wish for. I wish for a peaceful coexistence. I You know, I have I have so many friends from Israel in the Jewish community here. We get on very well. There is no reason But when the extremism comes in, whether it is from the Palestinian side or from the Israeli side, this is not acceptable in this in this day and age We really need to find I mean but we can but we can't get we can't get to uh you know, there's always hope, but we can't get to resolution unless there is justice There has to be uh yeah. Uh and there has to be accountability of course. Uh there has to be other willing. You know, the y you c Look, genocide is not one man committing it. Genocide is a system some is a system in place. So you know there are Companies in i I think the Italian woman, um the sorry, my mi my mind's just called Mm-hmm. No not Meloni, the Francesca Albanese. She wrote a report. Francesca Albanese she was a special rapporteur on the occupied territory. She wrote a report uh very concise report about companies that are complicit in supporting the MSI yes uh countries uh Yeah, that are breaking their own laws by by allowing supplying also supplying the Israeli army, the British themselves were flying uh uh airplanes out of Akatori uh in Cyprus and giving live feed information To the Israelis remote government size. These are war coward crimes. So if you are interested if you are interested Said injustice. And Jeremy Colvin just to Andy Burnham saying if you are truly interested in justice you should not fear a commission. You know uh if we are interested in the rule of law, you know, we we should Do this and embrace it. And embrace it. Embrace the rule of law. And bring those that are in the world. I mean this but then I actually feel sorry for the average of this isn't because Who's now getting grief because of all because the actions of this government? For sure. I mean this is you can't tour a whole mission. You can. You can. I mean this is awful. I mean it's it's the same as You know, everybody everybody was being uh nasty about the Argentinians after the football team thinking but Argentina is not its president. Exactly. I mean can't you know you forget Argentina has gone through you know if it wasn't for Swiss thirty forty years ago for us It's gone through the dictatorship, system. So you cannot define you cannot define a nation by its by by its president or its leadership. That's why we cannot define Israel It's by Netanyahu and Ben. Um and it's a sad that's a good thing. You know, uh there are decent people on all sides, but there are monsters on all sides. And and and Europe. I mean you know there are monsters in Europe. The monsters that the ones that are that that are encouraging people uh encouraging the the genocide, supplying arms to the genocide. The Americans are so complicit in this. And and was uh and what is it what? Are we going to have Trump towers in Gaza Is it all about shiny buildings and and and lies? I mean the this Trump board of beasts is is it's a scam. This is all about offshore This is all about offshore oil and gas. It's about resources. It's about controlling the eastern Mediterranean, finding alternative energy supplies. I mean it's just members. And unfortunately, you know, you have you have Arab governments that have invested heavily in the world. Twelve Target of Virtue. Um I mean, you know, that's another war criminal that should be brought to justice and everything, you know, right And in Iraq and I can have you know over a half a million dead and the first time I saw I was back from back from Syria. I was seeing some friends who were Palestinian living here in Square, living LSE. And but there was a young kid sitting upstairs and he he lost his arms. And um it's the thing of fluja at the same yeah. I mean now in Gaza they have the largest number of child amputees in the world. I mean You know, they they they are killing doctors. I know it's that's this people I mean it's it's paramedics have been a woman in an open prison. Yeah But this is why we need to have accountability when this comes to a close. Uh in order so we can move forward. Um and have a real just piece. Not an Oslo piece and real just piece. Oslo's Oslo's gone when I mean the two city solutions gone. It's gone. It's gone. The PAs are capable of governing the they are pretending to have uh Elections for election. Terrible. I mean that was like a fourth of Hamas to go really, yes. No, that was two or two, yeah, somewhere around then. Um I must took over I think in five was a data wood to five two six something like that. Um I mean yes, so I guess well I thank you so much for your time today. Next uh episode. Perhaps we can invite some of our Israeli friends to join in the conversation. In fact, no safe ground. No safe ground ground because until there's a safe ground. Because it'd be great to have dialogue for safe ground. Dialogue. Dialogue. Engagement dialogue. And that's the way to move forward. Well thank you very much. Thank you. Cheers. Thank you.